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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:11 pm 
I need to get out more

Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:06 pm
Posts: 722
@Conker:

You can read more about the properties of Rhovyl here:

http://www.swicofil.com/rhovyl.html

That particular fabric is chosen. because it is so much better than most of the so called "super-underwear".


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:14 pm 
I need to get out more

Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:06 pm
Posts: 722
Here is my 72 hour packing list:

Image

And the weight:

S: Summer
W: Winter

First number is my total weight, second is weight of each particular line.

My weight without clothes: 70,3kg (154lbs)

1st line:
S: 75,2kg ~ 4,9kg (165lbs ~ 10,8lbs)
W: 77,9kg ~ 7,6kg (171lbs ~ 16,7lbs)

2nd line:
S: 88,3kg ~ 12,9kg (194lbs ~ 28lbs)
W: 90,8kg ~ 12,9kg (200lbs ~ 28lbs)

3rd line:
S: 91,7kg ~ 3,4kg (202lbs ~ 7.4lbs)
W: 94,6kg ~ 3,7kg (208,5lbs ~ 8lbs)

4th line:
S: 99,4kg ~ 7,7kg (219lbs ~ 17lbs)
W: 105,1kg ~ 10,5kg (231lbs ~ 23lbs)

The numbers are presented with the following caveats:

-Empty magazines
-No food
-Camelbak placed in 3rd line
-No mission essential gear
-No body armor
-Light and heavy sleeping for summer and winter respectively

Ideal weight is listed as 30% of body weight for the fighting load, 45% of body weight for the approach march load. For me, that is 21kg (46lbs) and 31,6kg (69.6lbs), respectively. My fighting load (1st-3rd line) as outlined above is at 21,4kg (47lbs) for summer, and 24,3kg (53.5lbs) for winter. Approach march load is 29,1kg (64lbs)for summer, and 34,8kg (76lbs) for winter.

I can ditch my 3rd line in order to cut some weight for combat actions, but I will still exceed the ideal weight when ammo and food is added to the load. Not to mention mission essential gear.

This will work for all temps that I normally operate in.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:42 pm 
Not completely useless

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:13 pm
Posts: 78
Location: GER
Quote:
My weight without clothes: 70,3kg (154lbs)

1st line:
S: 75,2kg ~ 4,9kg (165lbs ~ 10,8lbs)
W: 77,9kg ~ 7,6kg (171lbs ~ 16,7lbs)

2nd line:
S: 88,3kg ~ 12,9kg (194lbs ~ 28lbs)
W: 90,8kg ~ 12,9kg (200lbs ~ 28lbs)

3rd line:
S: 91,7kg ~ 3,4kg (202lbs ~ 7.4lbs)
W: 94,6kg ~ 3,7kg (208,5lbs ~ 8lbs)

4th line:
S: 99,4kg ~ 7,7kg (219lbs ~ 17lbs)
W: 105,1kg ~ 10,5kg (231lbs ~ 23lbs)


Hey, how to read this?
I think:

Quote:
My weight without clothes: 70,3kg (154lbs)
1st line:
S: 75,2kg ~ 4,9kg (165lbs ~ 10,8lbs)

2nd line:
S: 88,3kg ~ 12,9kg (194lbs ~ 28lbs)
W: 90,8kg ~ 12,9kg (200lbs ~ 28lbs)



Your wight
Your wight + 1st Line
First Line Standalone
Your wight + 1st Line + 2nd Line

etc. etc.?

Seems not to much,
but like I see in your list:
You don´t got 2 pairs of any Layers, and no Overshoes etc.?

But I safed it (bevor it´s deleted) and the % helps alot.
Never learned this until now,
where did you take got this?

Military material, civilian trekking information, some phisilogie by research?


Thanks alot :)
This Topic get better and better for my personal use,
maybe I should start at the ground zero again - not in fiber science like I wanted to,
first in Gear and it´s lines (1st Line, 2nd Line, marching etc.)


Greetings

_________________
When injustice becomes law, rebellion becomes Duty!


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:38 am 
I need to get out more

Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:06 pm
Posts: 722
Quote:
Quote:
My weight without clothes: 70,3kg (154lbs)
1st line:
S: 75,2kg ~ 4,9kg (165lbs ~ 10,8lbs)

2nd line:
S: 88,3kg ~ 12,9kg (194lbs ~ 28lbs)
W: 90,8kg ~ 12,9kg (200lbs ~ 28lbs)



Your wight
Your wight + 1st Line
First Line Standalone
Your wight + 1st Line + 2nd Line

etc. etc.?


Correct.

My winter gear is listed under add-ons for winter. There you will find my overboots, insulation jacket etc.

My intention is to keep my load as light weight as possible, while still being able to survive. Granted, my load calls for some kind of shelter.

Some good resources for load bearing:

http://www.blackfive.net/files/rifle-pl ... lvi-1.pptx
http://www.usariem.army.mil/pages/downl ... agePDF.pdf
http://thedonovan.com/archives/modernwa ... Report.pdf
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a435486.pdf
http://origin.adsinc.com/wordpress/wp-c ... ndbook.pdf

An article I wrote for the norwegian army military academy magazine:

https://rapidshare.com/files/533683849/ ... entury.doc


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:06 pm 
Earning his keep

Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:36 am
Posts: 347
Location: UK
Guys, awesome thread!

I'm not sure anything I post will be as technically brilliant as what's been posted already but I thought I'd add what I can from my experiances.

During 17 years in the military, in a wide range of roles, I've kind of settled on 2 options for my warm kit but from the beginning..
I started out as most recruits with "you can only used issued kit". Back then it was ECW long sleeved t-shirt & long johns, Norwegian zip neck shirt, jersey heavy wool and the "Chinese fighting jacket" - a thin quilted thing. Comments on this lot = CRAP! I take my hat off to those who fought in this kit in the South Atlantic in '82. For laughs... http://www.landmineadventure.co.uk/Liner_Cold_Weather_Large_British_Army_Chinese_Fighting_Jacket/p1239534_7179311.aspx

On reaching my unit I purchased the helly Hansen fleece. First subzero recce exercise in Germany = crap. Andy tramps off to local outdoor shop and comes back with a very nice pertex and pile jacket (can't remember the make which is a shame as it was awesome but died long ago). This was a great jacket but I was either freezing or roasting. During this my layers were...
Helly Hansen wicking t-shirt
---warm layer goes here---
Windproof combat smock
Goretex if raining.

As you can see not really much of a layering system. As I've progressed I've kept the wicking layer the same. I sometimes wear and issued t shirt over the wicking layer for cold but not extreme cold conditions - extreme cold it goes and I wear a Keela pertex and pile smock thingy which is lightweight enough for me wear under my combat smock to do approach marches without sweating my ass off.

That's my active system. For static or sitting, freezing my ass off in an open patrol wagon I add in a few more layers...
Helly hansen wicking t-shirt
Keela smock thingy
Wind-shirt layer - old parachute silk pull over, or soft shell for super cold
Primaloft or down jacket
Combat smock

Add these two to my active layer then my core is toasty. Where i wear them within the layer system means i can get from static and toasty to active layer easily and without exposing myself further than i need to.

I never really worry about my legs, windproof combat pants or the crye combat pants are usually enough, if not I will throw on primaloft pants if I'm sat around a lot.

Within this concept I have 2 options (ah no not more decisions).
These are:
Cold n wet = primaloft
Dry n wet = down

I prefer the down kit as it packs smaller, weighs less and is warmer but I'm very conscious that despite how much "down proof" solution I wash in, the clothing could turn to a soggy, useless mess when wet.

The other bits to my systems are:
-Hanwag or meindl boots & Yeti gaiters.
-Lowe Alpine goretex & pile hat
-3 layers of gloves: silk inners, extremities grip working glove, extremities outer thick ski type... I wear these like a layers system too.

My clothing is:
Keela pile smock http://www.thebushcraftstore.co.uk/keela-belay-over-the-head-smock---olive-green-or-black-10626-p.asp
Primaloft...
Keela belay jacket http://www.amazon.co.uk/Keela-Belay-Advance-Jacket/dp/B002DPUB2M
Wild things tactical highloft jacket & pants http://www.wildthingsgear.com/high-loft-jacket-so-1-0-35.html
Down:
Bask Ertzog jacket (f**king awesome!) http://www.baskcanada.com/Featured/down-wear/ertzoguiaa.htm
Mountain equipment Annapurna jacket & pants http://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/the_gear/clothing/insulation/annapurna_jacket---377/

Sorry for the bad Keela links but at the time of posting their site is down for work. Obviuosly all the above are in tactical colours :D

Sleeping kit (just for giggles):
Wet n cold...
USGI sleeping system (bags not the bivi bag)- usually just the black bag.
Dry n cold...
Cumulus down bag http://www.cumulus-sleepingbags.co.uk/

Bivi bag = British issue hooped bivi. Usually used without the poles, just used as a huge bivi bag instead.

Annapurna:
Image

Ertzog under my smock & Yeti Gaiters:
Image

Keela Over the head smock thingy & crye combat pants:
Image

I suppose what all this waffle means to me is that everyone will prefer something different depending on many things, I hate wool near the skin for example. This is what I have come up with over my time (n trial) and it works for me.

Only thing I'm looking to improve is the glove layers. Got frost nip early in my career and still feel the cold on the hands... badly!

Feel free to rip this apart, like I said it works for me but there are always better ways of skinning a cat. AGR, i like your spread sheet. I think i will produce myself something similar (weapon trial cancelled this week so have time on my hands) and see how my kits' stats match up to eachother. Could you email me your spreadshit as i'm an XL retard :lol:

Cheers
Andy

P.S. Thanks to things i've learnt on this site i no longer run a Serpa holster but a safariland number with the MLS system for chopping and changing mounts.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:14 pm 
I need to get out more

Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:06 pm
Posts: 722
A few more resources:

http://rapidshare.com/files/2351210376/ ... eneste.rar

http://mil.no/education-training/coe-cw ... fault.aspx


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:15 pm 
Earning his keep

Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:36 am
Posts: 347
Location: UK
ANN good stuff


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:53 pm 
Not completely useless

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:13 pm
Posts: 78
Location: GER
Hey,

I want to to create some Gearlist now what I want to purchuse,
so I done my research with your Input *thanks by the way*
What do you guys think about this:


Underwear for men´s
DriFire Ultra Lightweight Boxer Short -> got 2 of them since ~5 years, feels comfortable

1st Layer - For direct body contact
Brynje Super Thermo Shirt
Brynje Super Thermo 1/1 Long Pants with fly

2nd Layer - Fire Resistant
DriFire Ultra-lightweight Long Sleeve Tee
DriFire Ultra-lightweight "Long Johns" Style Pant

3rd Layer - Fire Resistant too (should be) + for isolating
Woolpower Crewneck 200 Shirt
Woolpower Long Johns with Fly 200 Pant

4th Layer same as 3rd Layer to be modular for different climatics,

<---- all this I would purchuse and bring to some taylor who cut´s the not needed out, f.e. the 3rd and 4th Layer, one in Size M and the 4th in Size L -> than tailor it for me down


5th Layer:
Combat Uniform (Nylon gear - not fire Resistant)

Boots:
Hanwag Dakotar Winter GTX
Overboots Normeca HeatPac (already own them)

Sleepbag:
http://www.military-sleeping-bags.com/m ... stems.html
Carinthia Defence 4 (nice for all year and with Outshell and Inlay maybe enaugh?)
or 6 (should be comfortable and with Outshell + Inlay really hot inside :D)
or Survival Down 1000 (last one would be great as Thermolayer to wear on daytime!)
+ Outshell + Inlay


So, what is miss in this list!
- Headwear:
Under the helmet and standalone! Hat and Balaclava, FR needed! DriFire, Woolpower, UnderArmour, PolarTec?

- Glove Layers:
thin baselayer, PolarTec, UnderArmour, who is in the market? Are there FR products?

- Sock Layers:
Woolpower? Falke? Termoswed? Different material mixes...

- Wind and Rainprotection:
Softshell + Hardshell, only company I think who looks interesting is Carintia, Arc Tyrex (too expensive), Plat A Tac, SnugPak?

- Tent:
Carintia? Maybe some Out Layer for the Bag is enaugh, I think I do not need a tent in "Survival Mode"...?

- Coldgear Outter- Thermolayer:
thick thermoisolating, for extreme temperaturs or no movement like sayed by AGR416, maybe the sleepbag? Maybe Carintia? Plat A Tac? Snugpak?
What military spec company´s are out there?



How would you edit this list,
I have to buy all new, except Boxershorts and Overboots, so edit it all.
But! Not the Shoes, I will buy Hanwag, there is no other way ;)

EDIT:
The germany military got a nice new concept for rainprotection:
It´s no outter Layer,
it´s one of the base Layers (3rd or 4th I think) cause -> if the base layers will get wet you have a problem,
and you want to use your Gear (Plate Carrier -> MagPouches) in battle, so if you wear some Rainprotection over it, it´s negativ for your "workflow"... They just put Thermolayers on top,
so you are ever protected against rain/wind.

Can´t describe it as good in english, if I find some link again I will post it.
Seems pretty logic to me, so maybe I should try that too?


Thanks guys!

_________________
When injustice becomes law, rebellion becomes Duty!


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:13 pm 
The New Guy
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:46 pm
Posts: 31
Location: Germany
Don't know if you stated it before, but, out of curiostity, are you a German military member?
And if, whats your job there?

Regarding your clothing:
Rethink your first layer, as, even if it might be a long shot, your fire retardent/protective clothing layers are of no use, if the layer next to your skin is made of '100% Polypropylene'.

You might want to rethink your 3rd and 4th layer too, because if you have to dry some of your layers, you will need twice the room (which can be a pain in the a** to provide in a snow shelter).
Get yourself a fitting 200g/m² (i recommend a turtleneck, as it's more comfy) and if that's not enough, get a 400g/m² for the colder days.

The carinthia (issued as Schlafsack, allgemein 2) is hot as hell ( at -10C, at least for me - I think it's supposed to be usable down to -20C but I can't remember what the lowest temperature was, I used it in) and you get a good 5 to 10 degrees lower with the issued bivy bag. Don't forget to buy a good mattress.

For socks, I use 5.11 socks for everything but winter and wollpower socks for the colder time of the year (200g/m² with activity, 400g/m² when static)

As a softshell I use a otte heavy dk softshell and as goretex layer I had the Unterziehnässeschutz (a hardshell supposed to be worn under your combat fatigues, which nobody did^^).

As a warming layer get a snugpack set of jacket and trousers on ebay, they are dirt cheap there, even though its winter. The real deal is the carinthia hig and mig, but you have to put some serious money on the table to get those.

The use of a tent might be unsuitable for your mission in the cold. I personally prefer a tarp and a bivy bag, because of the weight issues.


As for the new clothing line: Thats just a try to sustain gore-tex clothing longer (which will be futile, as there is no plan for the care of it regarding washing and cleaning). Its not a sound idea, because if your outer layers get wet, they get heavy and you get more easily cold.
They didn't want to build a gore-tex field-uniform, because of the cost.
And btw, it's supposed to be part of the IDZ-Es (now called Gladius) clothing line.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:29 pm 
Not completely useless

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:13 pm
Posts: 78
Location: GER
Leihenchester wrote:
Don't know if you stated it before, but, out of curiostity, are you a German military member?
And if, whats your job there?


Yes I am, but the main use for the gear is private (globaltrotting, alpin trekking etc.).
If the gear is proven I want to use it at "work" too - yes, that´s why I plan to buy it under military conditions like fire resistant, lightweight and modular.

Quote:
Regarding your clothing:
Rethink your first layer, as, even if it might be a long shot, your fire retardent/protective clothing layers are of no use, if the layer next to your skin is made of '100% Polypropylene'.


Fll ack,
I wanted some FR Material like wool as base layer too, but many reports they use Brynje and if you wear some FR as next layer, it´s okay.
Do you know some alternative base layer (net material)?

Quote:
You might want to rethink your 3rd and 4th layer too, because if you have to dry some of your layers, you will need twice the room (which can be a pain in the a** to provide in a snow shelter).
Get yourself a fitting 200g/m² (i recommend a turtleneck, as it's more comfy) and if that's not enough, get a 400g/m² for the colder days.


Na - I´m not with you!
Modular sound´s better,
and if I need to dry 2 pieces or 1 piece is as private person in the Field not a big problem, I got space enaugh and I do not need to be hidden / stealth - or what is your point?
And: 1 piece dries faster with less material, so maybe in shorter time 1 of 2 is dry again!

Quote:
The carinthia (issued as Schlafsack, allgemein 2) is hot as hell ( at -10C, at least for me - I think it's supposed to be usable down to -20C but I can't remember what the lowest temperature was, I used it in) and you get a good 5 to 10 degrees lower with the issued bivy bag. Don't forget to buy a good mattress.

We speak about -40°C or more in extreme, consider that!
The point I got is: Some time ago, I got some sleepback, I think from some NL Company, bought by the EGB. It was reaaaaaly lightwight and compressed, but heavy isolating cause it uses true downen material!
Don´t know the name anymore :(


Quote:
For socks, I use 5.11 socks for everything but winter and wollpower socks for the colder time of the year (200g/m² with activity, 400g/m² when static)


Thanks, I will check them.


Quote:
As a softshell I use a otte heavy dk softshell and as goretex layer I had the Unterziehnässeschutz (a hardshell supposed to be worn under your combat fatigues, which nobody did^^).


Unterziehnässeschutz -> never got this at BW? I need to research it, but sounds interessting!


Quote:
As a warming layer get a snugpack set of jacket and trousers on ebay, they are dirt cheap there, even though its winter. The real deal is the carinthia hig and mig, but you have to put some serious money on the table to get those.


I owned some Snugpak! The company "sucks"... made in Taiwan? Bought by some Swiss Company and relabelt for Snugpak ecauls in some expensive product! Tzzzzz!


Quote:
The use of a tent might be unsuitable for your mission in the cold. I personally prefer a tarp and a bivy bag, because of the weight issues.


That´s exactly what I thought too :)
But Carinthias Products looks lightweight and functional too...

Quote:
As for the new clothing line: Thats just a try to sustain gore-tex clothing longer (which will be futile, as there is no plan for the care of it regarding washing and cleaning). Its not a sound idea, because if your outer layers get wet, they get heavy and you get more easily cold.
They didn't want to build a gore-tex field-uniform, because of the cost.
And btw, it's supposed to be part of the IDZ-Es (now called Gladius) clothing line.


If you wear hydrophobic layers on the outside, like Polyamid, Aramid etc. not. You stay (relativ) dry and so you will not get cold as fast. Plus: Water can isolate you too, think about neopren. Itßs getting real warm and nice climate inside...

And no, it´s not in the Gladius Project (maybe it´s researched cause that, but it will be lunched for everyone in the BW, Name of the project is "Kampfbekleidung für Einsatz und Übung")

So, maybe we talk about different things?

But, are there third party - full GoreTex Products out there, no matter what price, they just need to work.


Greetings and thanks ;)

_________________
When injustice becomes law, rebellion becomes Duty!


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:09 pm 
The New Guy
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:46 pm
Posts: 31
Location: Germany
For your 1st layer its the same, as with all other: Merino is nearly fire retardent, elsewise you should look for potomac or drifire products. The materials should not drip or melt and should need a foreign source to burn further.

The main issue with all fire protective gear in combat use is, that heat still gets through the layers (elsewise you die from hyperthermia beforehand^^) and if your base layer is heated enough it will still melt to your skin. On the other hand its still arguable that, if the heat is strong enough to get through every layer of your clothing, that it might be too hot for you to survive, as your face - and with that your brain - is quite unprotected (and with all that in mind, the heat from a blast does not necessarily engulf all of your body, as it can be easily deflected... well, a complicated matter, in which I'm no expert).
The second danger when dealing with heat is moisture (mostly from sweat), which rapidly vaporates and scalds you (hope that's the right term; zu deutsch, verbrühen).

Back to your first layer: I don't know any product, which would satisfy your needs, but the best compromise for you would be a lightweight flame retardent shirt. The bryne net clothing is fine, but not flame retardent and (my experience) not comfortable as a base layer when worn with rucksack or body armor (it peeled my skin off).

As for your 3rd and 4th layering: I didn't know, that you wanted to use it under civilian circumstances, I only have the military perspective.

For your sleeping bag: In -40C every sane person would build a shelter (in that case an igloo), which will allow the temperature to get in the single digits. I don't know of any newer issued bags for EGB, but it's been most likely the fernspäher schlafsack (by ajungilak I think), which is issued for fun stuff like cold response.

For the Unterziehnässeschutz you have to be part of the Fernspäher/KSK or need to have the right connections and superiors to demand through supply channels^^

I've never used snugpak, but it still worked fine for my fellow soldiers; I bought myself a panlo jacket, which I like very much and kept my warm in every situation but one (coldest winter ever - my pov^^ - strong winds and not nearly enough clothing to keep me warm on this night in the op)

Regarding Gladius: Might be, that they changed their oppinion on the clothing line... I'm not longer part of the armed forces, so I'm in the lucky position not to have to care.
Should the new clothing system work, it's nice for every soldier, but from what I know hand have heard, it's not as good as the creators think it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:56 am 
Not completely useless

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:13 pm
Posts: 78
Location: GER
Hey,

so I googled the Companys you said,
and after a lil bit about the chemical texture and human physiology!

Potomac seems nice in the first second,
but they use modacrylic as fiber,
same like DriFire!

It´s flame retardent cause the full name of it is "acrylic fibers modified by the addition of Metal Oxide flame retardant chemicals",
and the negativ about is: It´s toxic.

Maybe I overreact, but I think I want to stay as much natural I can (try this in my private live too),
so I will go with natural fabircs.
And until now, only merino wool seems to be good.

But, woolpower Products (and other merino wool products) often are with Polyarmid, that is slightly toxic too (like nearly every plastic). So I have too look for something natural for the 1st Layer Body contact, after this I think mix fabrics are "okay", hope I will not get cancer in 50 years cause this shit...

Quote:
For your sleeping bag: In -40C every sane person would build a shelter

At "survival Mode" I got no time for that! Do you?


Quote:
For the Unterziehnässeschutz you have to be part of the Fernspäher/KSK or need to have the right connections and superiors to demand through supply channels^^

I will research it and if it´s interesting I will ask my contacts^^


Greetings

_________________
When injustice becomes law, rebellion becomes Duty!


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:34 am 
I need to get out more

Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:06 pm
Posts: 722
Club-mate:

One thing to remember about winter hiking/camping and fieldcraft is that it is not so much about the gear, as it is about knowledge/training. We say it's 20% clothing, 80% training.

If you do not build a shelter of some kind when it is -40, you are going to be dead regardless of sleeping bags etc. You can survive for a bit, but hypothermia will set in eventually if you are static without protection from the elements. That is in addition to frostnip, as well as superficial and deep frost bite.

A few pointers:

-Stop and go back before it's too late - there is no shame in this
-Stop and build a shelter in due time

To survive over time in extreme winter conditions you will need shelter and a heat source; both for warmth and the ability to get water. Dehydration is a much bigger risk in winter than summer, due to reduced thirst sensation and cold diuresis. If you have no means of heating food, you will also spend a lot of energy heating up your meals using your basal heat production.

As for the requirement for a fire retardant base layer, I am asking why? Is the risk for burn injuries that great? If the risk is not that great, are the fire retardant properties worth the increased cost over normal merino wool, that is probably warmer in addition to providing adequate fire retardancy?

Also, as far as weight is concerned, be careful not to be over-redundant in your planning. Having one each of every type of layer might not be neccessary if you can find one that works well across the board.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:04 pm 
Not completely useless

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:13 pm
Posts: 78
Location: GER
Quote:
One thing to remember about winter hiking/camping and fieldcraft is that it is not so much about the gear, as it is about knowledge/training. We say it's 20% clothing, 80% training.


I read that in one of the presentation´s you uploaded,
and I believe in it. My knowledge Factor for this extreme conditions is about 0% :D
But even if Clothing is only 20, I will need the right one.
Not cause I can switch my brain off and the clothing is working for me,
it´s more that I want to find the best clothings, like you said, for reduce weight and get best performance for the weight I carry.
And as next -> Flame resistant.

And this is a point with first prioraty, cause a) the military spec and b) if something happens, I´m happy about I got it! Maybe I will never need it, but I do not want to bet and trust in not FR material if the shit hit the fan...

Quote:
To survive over time in extreme winter conditions you will need shelter and a heat source


For normal - private use - I agree with you too. But I think in extreme: What if I´m in battle for a few hours, than I can not build something life protection. Need to get my gear out - dress me in all I got + put myself in the sleepbag, maybe put a tarp over me and than burrow me into the snow. That need´s to be enaugh, together with heat production (situps or other activity, shaking, eating/drinking).

I´m happy only need to plan for ~ -40°C and not for -60°C, but I think I will not get into fight at syberia or the north pole :lol:

Quote:
Also, as far as weight is concerned, be careful not to be over-redundant in your planning. Having one each of every type of layer might not be neccessary if you can find one that works well across the board.


What do you mean exactly?
As less as possible - yes,
but how should something work across?
And, like your sources and you said, redundant is one of the knowledge things, and nearly everthing (expacilly baselayer) should be redundant in the loadout?


It would be nice if you can help me listing some products, from first layer to the outlayer and sleepbag?
What do you wear? I think you as norwegian(?) should know it the best,
but consider that my feeling of cold is earlier than yours :D


Greetings

_________________
When injustice becomes law, rebellion becomes Duty!


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:53 pm 
The New Guy
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:46 pm
Posts: 31
Location: Germany
Club-Mate, I don't mean to offend you, but you don't seem to have much knowledge on (winter) warfare.

For whatever reason you will have to face winter warfare (probably mountain warfare) conditions, you will be trained to deal with those circumstances. There's no need to get all this gear beforehand, because you'll probably be issued something and you might want to try to work with it, before spending all your money. I know that you wanted to you use it for private journeys too, but you should slow down a bit. With no knowledge on winter/arctic conditions you should first get some training and later on consider on experience what gear needs improvement.


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