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 Post subject: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:37 am 
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Location: GER
Hey guys,

I´m thinking of buying some new function underwear,
at first I wanted UnderArmour ColdGear (5.0) but I read about DriFire´s Gear.

So I was researching for some Reviews or specs. of DriFire products but do not find anything.

For what do I need it?
I want something for realy cold conditions, not the artic but without movement for hours in the Alpins,
so does anybody know the Heavywight fabrics and if they would do the job?

How much g/m² do they weight,
are they single or double knitted (like other products, f.e. UnderArmour),
and what is the comfort + extreme temperatur of them?


Thank you guys

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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:09 pm 
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buy the Arcteryx RHO AR Top and Bottom, or anything made of Polartec Powerstretch!


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:53 pm 
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Is there any specific reason for looking specificaly at drifire? FR properties? Color? Cut?
Are you looking for base layer, insulation layer or both?

Drifire does some really nice, non itching base layers, but I don't see them really aimed at cold weather function.

If you are looking for technical cold base layer or warm insulation layer, you should look into merino wool stuff, which IMO is the best material there is. There's plenty of manufacturers offering them, Icebreaker, Arc'teryx, Woolpower, and they come in almost any flavor, weight, color. Not cheap, but well worth it!

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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:24 am 
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Hey Jack,

yeah I am open to all directions:
driFire, Woolpower, Termoswed, Fuchsuber, UnderArmour, Pinewood etc.!

As base layer I want something fire resistent,
but I do not like
a) chemical added wool, cause if you wash it a few times it loose the FR ability
b) much NOMEX part, cause I do not like the comfort

what I like is my driFire Boxershirt, so the Molydrelic (or how it´s called) is a nice fabric,
it´s FR by itself, nice feeling on the skin and stays in shape after hounrdres of washes.
As next it´s anti microbial - that´s a plus as next.

I want to protect everything with a thin layer, so from socks, gloves, trousers, top and a balaclava I want everything out of the same material from 1 company.
I could let the socks out, but would be nice if it´s possible too.


For Isolationlayer I am looking about 2-3 thin layers, so I can adjust it to every envoirment I´m in,
woolpower - merino whool generally - seem´s nice for this?

Here I need the trouser, top and a balaclava, but that is not as import, maybe just a thin hat (so I can wear it under a helmet).

Cause I am wearing maximum a normal combat pant and a combat shirt on top (yes just a combat shirt, I want to wear same out layer all the year) I need fabrics keeping me warm up to -20°C and low activity.
So I think thicker fabric and about 2 or 3 sets are needed (ecauls in total: 1 FR base, 2-3 isolation by merino whool or other thin mat., the combat pant and shirt).
If it´s getting colder cause I don´t move, I got a jacket (some Fleece Jacket, maybe my Snugpak).



Greetings


Ps.: Money doesn´t matter first, but I don´t waste it for "luxus premium plus" brands like Arc´tyrex, in my eyes their products are not groundbreaking,
but for the premium brands I´m open.
If Arc´tyrex got a groundbreaking product I would consider about it, but the ones I know aren´t.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:22 am 
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I'd say Icebreaker. They've got everything you need from socks to balaclava ;)
To be honest with you, I haven't used them yet, but I've heard nothing but good comments about them, and I've got a couple of their boxers and socks on my way. I'm sold to merino wool for cold weather.

That being said, do you need the FR ability? If so, baselayers are good... but having something like a fleece on top of it, which is 100% synthetic, will melt on you.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:07 am 
Quite OK actually

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Location: Switzerland
Check out the merino section from Woolpower.

Especially if you want it just fro warmth, merino wool is something of the best. And as the website states, it has some natural FR capabilities. And it doesn't smell that fast.
They're available in all sort of weights (= thickness) and while not cheap, I think still affordable.

If you would say you need something for heavy activities to stay dry in the cold, then maybe something different is recommended for baselayer, I'm not completely satisfied with that aspect, but I gues it's not specially designed for this.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:02 pm 
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As far as your specs go, you should stick with woolpower, as merino-woll is nigh flame-resistant and will keep you warm.

But if I may, I'd like to give some advice: You shouldn't use wool-products as a base-layer, as they keep the moist which will ´give you a harder time staying warm. For base-layers I recommend you to get something synthetic flame-retardent (I used Potomac shirts, but I've no idea, if there's something better out there).
For low activity word in -20 degrees I recommend you get something to put over your combat shirt as you will sweat to death, should you have to get more active (maybe a Sleeka or a Panlo jacket)
And you might ditch the idea of wearing a combat shirt in -20 degrees souroundings, as the best warming layers won't help you, when the wind blows through them.

I would wear a base layer of thin merino socks and moiste-wicking shorts and longsleeve, then a warming layer (warmer, longer socks, long undies and longsleeve with zip-collar), my outer layer would be a softshell or goretex outfit (to keep the wind and snow out) and my 2nd line. Should the weather be dry enough, I'd wear Panlo jacket (lvl7 Pcu, Sleeka, whatever) over my gear, so could quickly ditch it, if the weather sucks, I'd wear it under my outer layer of clothes (or should the situation allow it, I'd use a poncho with a liner).
Basically what I described is in someway the PCU layering system, only that I never had the luxury of having it :cry: ...


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:48 pm 
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Leihenchester wrote:
You shouldn't use wool-products as a base-layer, as they keep the moist which will ´give you a harder time staying warm.


No, just no. The entire point of using wool as a base layer is that it isolates and keeps you warm DESPITE beeing wet and soggy as shite.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:54 pm 
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Wool is a terrible baselayer, if it's regular wool. Merino wool is not the same as old-school wool underwear. I'm wearing an Icebreaker t-shirt right now in conjunction with my issued cold weather gear. It is better than the ECWCS level 1, in my opinion, and has far better moisture wicking properties. It's also flame retardant, and has not lost that property despite numerous wash cycles (I've found this out the fun way).


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:11 pm 
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Ok, I want to make a few observations.

The base layer, as in next to the skin layer, should be a moisture wicking layer of some sorts. We use a ventilating mesh shirt, made by rhovyl, that has the following properties:

-Transports moisture away from the body
-Allows for good air circulation close to the body
-Easy to clean, just shake it off

The mid layer, or insulating layer should be a wool-based product, such as merino wool. Woolpower Ullfrotté products are very good, and we are issued the 200g overshirt and long johns, as well as a 600g jacket. The jacket is more of a reinforcement layer though.

http://www.woolpower.se/en/asp/produkter_1_7222.asp
http://www.woolpower.se/en/asp/produkter_1_7342.asp

They can be used as a base layer, we use them as a mid layer.

The outer layer should provide water and wind resistance. I prefer a NYCO garment for this purpose. Anyways, that is OT.

And wool will keep you warm even when wet.

Anywho, here is a good presentation from the nor mil (Centre of Excellence for Cold Weather Ops in NATO) on proper layering for cold weather ops:

https://rapidshare.com/files/3452151822 ... 06494a.ppt

The english might not be very good in some areas, but you get the idea.

And remember, it's the heated air between the layers that provide the heat, not the clothes themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:14 pm 
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AGR, I take your mesh baselayer is aimed at active/dynamic scenarios? How does it perform with static jobs? I remember some stuff I had a while back from Brinje (sp?) that was based on the same concept, but I found it to be lacking warmth when used for long static assignements. However for Aerobic activities, it rocked.

We use icebreaker here in various weight: 150 S/sleeve & 200 L/Sleeve as baselayers (150 works great even in summer), 260 as a mid layer, and 320 in some occasions as an outer layer in dry/non windy conditions. We found out that it was a good thing to use FR baselayer all year round, as even a small gunshot wound through a synthetic sleeve could leave a nasty little scar...
The moisture managment thing is definitely not a problem with any of those merino baselayer, but then again I don't do anything that makes me moist (pun intended).

To get back on the original question, I guess Drifire could be a good option as far as a full body baselayer solution. That said, you might be better off warm wise with a merino mid layer though...

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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:32 pm 
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Yes, for active/dynamic scenarios. But it works well for static duty, as the base layer. If it is moist, then change into something dry. The garments you are talking about is called Brynje:

http://www.brynje.no/norwegian/super_th ... shirt.html

or maybe this one:

http://www.brynje.no/norwegian/arctic_zip_polo_3-4.html

I wouldn't really worry about the base layer for static duty in cold weather. You need a good mid-layer, in the 200g-600g range based on what you can be bothered to carry, and some good reinforcement garments.

I like Carinthias stuff:

http://www.military-sleeping-bags.com/h ... ments.html

You need some good footwear, preferably some insulated overboots, as well as some good socks. Finally, you need something to keep you off the ground, to minimize heat loss from conduction.

Bottom line though, if you are static over time in extreme cold weather, you will be cold, as the air trapped between the layers will cool you down. The only way to survive over time is shelter and a heat source. Activity can double as a heat source, but then you risk sweating, further increasing heat loss when static again. Like we say, cold weather survival is 20% gear, 80% knowledge.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:43 pm 
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Sorry, should have clarified that I was referring to Icebreaker 150... Don't want any undue confusion on my part. Good call, AGR.


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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:29 pm 
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Pkekyo wrote:
No, just no. The entire point of using wool as a base layer is that it isolates and keeps you warm DESPITE being wet and soggy as shite.

THIS.

pkm200901 wrote:
I've found this out the fun way.

Story? I love stories :mrgreen:


@AGR: Interesting comments here. Lots of things to read with the links, but I'll take the time, seems worthwhile.
I've personally preferred merino base-layers so far for the reason above (see Pkekyo's post), as I've found that synthetic moisture-wicking often feel cold on the skin as soon as I stop moving, while merino still feels warm even if moist.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold Gear
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:54 pm 
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Hey,

yeah this grow´s up to a real nice Topic and is more complicated when I thought bevor - like everytime :lol:

So the PPT is real nice,
I read it entire and - without argumenting to deep - it does make sence with the layers.

But:
Are their technical Datasheets and Specs. out there from some University or Lab who compares the different Materials in Theory? Like the vapor permeability or water vapor or other papersheets?
Would be nice to compare them and select products?

What problem I see is:
The one thing is what you want and need,
the other thing is the needed volum in backpack, but more necessary: The weight...
I don´t want to take about 10 - 15 layers to drive redundant, 4 pairs of socks, outer shoes, inner shoes etc. to carry with me,
that are about 20 kilo plus some sleepback, a tent, many food and drink, survival stuff, weapon, ammunition.
At the End I got some 80kg 160L volume backpack...

-> just in my case it needs to be light and compressable,
but I think everyone do want it like this, so there is no all-in-one device suitable for every purpose?

What do you guys use?


Thanks to all who are active in this thread, you got my respect for the knowledge!


Greetings

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